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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Jan 3, 2014 8:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: The74 "Grateful Dead Movie" sound track , and the shows .

Continuing my transversal of the "official releases" :
I know this run is not as highly regarded as most of the rest of the year, maybe they are a little tired, but taken on its own there is some amazing music here .
Each of the 5 discs of the stk., have remarkable moments . The Dark Star>Morning Dew is right up there with anything they did . There are a few odd things, does anyone know the story of the "edited" Eyes , for instance ?
I know they were/are unhappy with "Steal your Face", they make up with it here, with all the jams; but in a weird way, it is also a misrepresentation of these shows .
I also listened to SYF, for comparison (I think only one performance is duplicated, Casey Jones) . They sound is not awesome on the Stk.., but much better than the old SYF . Does anyone know if the they did any overdubbing on SYF ? The vocals don't sound like it, but Keith's piano in Big River, sure seem too forward (punched in ?) . For all it's demerits, I though it was wrong of them to not include it in the albums box set . I'm not sure I think it as any worse than "Dead Set" .
So what do you folks think about this run of shows, and the albums taken form them ?

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Poster: geolectro Date: Jan 3, 2014 2:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

Regarding the edit in Eyes, Jerry blows the first solo a little bit, seems like he probably didn't feel the need to include his own flubs. The solo that did make the cut is one of his greatest ever musical statements in my estimation. Dick played this version at Jerry's memorial in Golden Gate Park, which was released on a pirate cd label in the 90's. It is pretty awesome to compare the two solos, one being pretty well botched, one being a freaking miracle...

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Poster: Pig Street ! Date: Jan 3, 2014 9:11am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

LIA always a good read
http://deadessays.blogspot.com/2009/08/did-dead-like-their-live-albums.html

Attachment: SYF-NYM.jpeg

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Poster: c-freedom Date: Jan 3, 2014 1:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

I saw the movie before I was a deadhead just happened to be playing with the Song Remains the Same and they even threw in a bunch of weird shorts like Godzilla vs. Bambi.
It primed me for jumping into the music really quickly once I got to my first JGB show in 84.
Only thing I remember from the movie was the guy who did not want to be in the movie- for whatever reason that stuck in my head.
My mind was not yet on that Grateful Dead wavelength so much of it went over my head.
I will have to check out Sea stones again hopefully with the full band. The one I heard was just Ned and there was not much to it.

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Poster: billydlions Date: Jan 3, 2014 11:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

This is my favorite release ever. I don't think they sound tired, but perhaps they are a little looser (the pressure was off) and a little rusty given that they hadn't played since 9/21. I think the sound on these disks are great and I like the reverb- which is also present on Miller's sources, so I don't think it was added in. Of all the official releases this box set would be my desert island choice (not including E72- too big to bring on the boat).

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Poster: Pat Buzby Date: Jan 3, 2014 7:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

Re overdubbing on SYF: I remember Bear claiming that Donna's vocal didn't come through on the tapes so her parts were overdubbed. Don't know if this is correct.

I have always liked the jams. 10/16 has an interesting one that didn't make it to the 5 CD set.

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Poster: N Hoey Date: Jan 4, 2014 6:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

My perspectives at the time as a young east coast deadhead.

SYF came out about 5 weeks before my first show. We thought it was awful. I was utterly perplexed by it.

I saw the movie when it came out at the initial run at the Zeigfield Theatre in NYC. Seeing the band playing made a huge difference in how the performance came across. Although by then, the Spring '77 GD had morphed even further from the '74 sound.

I have since come to the conclusion that the Wall of Sound made for a good live experience but lousy recordings. The single biggest reason for that is the extreme isolation of the instruments in their separate tracks prevents the cohesion necessary for a "live" recording to communicate emotionally. The sounds lacks primal unity. It doesn't sound like a BAND; it sounds like 5 guys playing at the same time. That is not the same thing. Another thing is that those canceling vocal microphones sound terrible. Really terrible. They were an innovation that made the system design possible but the resulting vocal tracks on the recordings just plain suck. Hollow, nasal, breathy and poppy, yuck.

I rarely listen to '73-'74 because I think the recordings from that time are incoherent and disjointed. No matter how good the performance might be, the recordings all detract. I think the recorded sound of '72, and back through '71, '70 to the Live Dead FW run is far superior.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 4, 2014 8:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

Bingo on the recording description; many of the 70s DPs just sound terrible to me...77 esp.

Yuck.

I see it as similar to what I complain about above; folks suggest that even though vocals were going south over the yrs, the playing was improving on a technical front--I think the same thing was happening with the recordings and/or mixing at one level (highly variable, but in general). Dunno--but suspect this is one reason for my disdain.

"Better", but no soul.

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Poster: stratocaster Date: Jan 3, 2014 6:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

I love this release, they have a somewhat transitional verge of 75 sound in the jams...10/18 is one of the better shows of the year...

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Jan 3, 2014 12:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

I was lucky to go to 10/18 and 10/19. Drove up with buddies from LA - crashed in Oakland - and scored tickets on the street. Failed for the last night and thought I would never see them again. Doh!

For years I thought the Eyes and the DS were some of the pinnacles of their playing. I still make a point of playing them regularly, especially the DS. Truly a blue light, candle-glowing sort of experience, especially coming out of the space of Seastones. I know I've babbled about this before, but that sequence ending in Morning Dew was one of the most emotional experiences I've ever had at a show, by anyone. That noted, I did buy into Dennis's arguments and now prefer listening to 8/6/74 in general. The music is more explosive and just leaps out.

I got to say the sound has been the same to me forever. Of course I can't remember back 40 years (40 years!), but Dick Latvala made me tapes of these shows in 1977 and the sound was there then. I just can't say if it was in the hall.

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Poster: Arck Date: Jan 5, 2014 3:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

I asked David Lemieux about the edited Eyes just over four years ago. Here's his answer:

"For the GD Movie, when Jerry edited the Eyes of the World and Casey Jones, he physically cut those segments of music out of the master tape, and we searched and searched and never found them. The 2-track, which was used on So Many Roads, could have been used, but we opted to use on multitracks on the album. Perhaps not the populart choice, but we simply didn't have the tape with which to mix the entire song."

This post was modified by Arck on 2014-01-05 11:40:18

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Jan 3, 2014 9:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

Never liked the sound of these shows, despite Norman's attempts to punch them up on the Soundtrack - just too hollow & echoey. One of the rare episodes when the band put the recording job into the hands of an incompetent crew.
I don't know why the Eyes was edited on the Soundtrack. I don't think there was any overdubbing on SYF - just mixing it was a challenge for Phil & Bear, they were on a release deadline, & I haven't heard that any others were involved - but I haven't checked that. When Garcia was doing the film, though, he'd change the film mix to match the visuals. Ned Lagin played through all the second sets, but I think a lot of his playing got wiped.
Speaking just of the second sets, I really like the long spacy segment that starts the set on 10/16. Odd that the big jam is at the start of the set. The Playing from the first set may be the show highlight, though.
The Seastones>Dark Star>Morning Dew from 10/18 is (no surprise) my favorite piece from all the shows, though the big Other One from 10/17 is also an adventure. In contrast, I thought the second-set jam on 10/19 was a disappointment. 10/20 is more of a fun finale than a deep-jam show.
They're not everyone's cup of tea, but I find the full-band Seastones segments to be quite interesting, maybe indicating where the band would've been going if they hadn't gone on hiatus.

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Jan 3, 2014 11:10am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

I enjoyed some of the music from this run very much.

Songs listed are all good versions.
*-denotes excellent to extraordinary version

-10/16-

Cumberland Blues
Row Jimmy
PITB *
Seastones * ->
Wharf Rat- average ->
space * ->
Eyes of the World *

-10/17-

Black Throated Wind
Friend of the Devil
Let it Grow
It Must Have Been the Roses
Other One
Stella Blue

-10/18-

Let it Grow
jam ->
Dark Star (last real version) ->
Morning Dew *
Promised Land
Bertha
Greatest Story Ever Told
Ship of Fools *

-10/19-

Mississippi Half-Step
Friend of the Devil
It Must Have Been the Roses *
El Paso
Loose Lucy
Black Throated Wind
Scarlet Begonias
To Lay Me Down
Eyes of the World
Big River
Tomorrow is Forever
Caution jam ->
Truckin'

-10/20-

Cold Rain and Snow *
Tennessee Jed *
Promised Land
Eyes of the World
Stella Blue *


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Poster: light into ashes Date: Jan 3, 2014 12:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

Thanks for the notes - it looks like you regard 10/19 as the best first set of this run.

Per deaddisc, the songs on SYF were picked from these dates:
10/17 - Casey Jones
10/18 - Ship Of Fools, Beat It On Down The Line, Big River, Sugaree
10/19 - Mississippi Half Step, Black Throated Wind, U.S. Blues, El Paso
10/20 - Promised Land, Cold Rain And Snow, Around And Around, Stella Blue, It Must Have Been The Roses

(When Phil made his picks, he was avoiding songs that had been on the previous live albums, and long jams, so that limited his options.)

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Jan 3, 2014 1:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

10/19 had the largest number of well played songs in the first set,but I prefer 10/16 because of that wonderful PITB.Quality over quantity every time.

I think this run of shows is tainted by the SYF album in a similar manner to the Dylan/Dead tour and how it is impacted by the Dylan and the Dead album. A small sampling of some not so good versions of songs misrepresent five and six shows respectfully.

It seems between the poor quality of the recordings,no long jams and avoiding previously used songs Phil was hamstrung in his choices for an album.I think SYF has 4 good versions and three excellent versions on it judging by your list LIA.I never got the whole Steal Your Money thing,it's a decent album.

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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Jan 4, 2014 8:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

Good comparison to the Dylan album . In the days of not having access to the tapes, it gave us versions we could play of songs we were hearing live . Some of those versions that made it to SYF, I would not have wanted to been without (The Stella, and the slow Cold Rain, the still relatively tight Around & Around , etc.). I like you list agree with almost all of it .
One thing I should mention, is besides the audio of these shows mentioned , the extra video footage on the dvd set is great . To see Garcia playing that Dark Star in an ecstatic state is just wonderful .
LIA, or anyone, do you recall them saying they had more of this footage that they might release someday ?
I hope you all see this, thanks for all the interesting input .

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Jan 4, 2014 9:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

I've noticed here on the forum that those two albums are often mentioned in relation to the run of shows from which they came.It seems illogical now since all the other music is available and the albums only represent a tiny percentage of what was played over the length of the runs.

Thanks for starting an interesting thread.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 4, 2014 12:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

DH has it right when he sez "I got the tapes from Gans and they 'have it' though I don't know if it was in the hall in 74".

We were all convinced at the time that they had declined dramatically from 71 to 72 to 73 and bingo in 74. Well, at the time, we didn't talk about it til 74, but as it was my first yr, then there was the hiatus, we talked all thru 75 about it...and that was the consensus in the East Bay Area.

Seriously.

When this was released in 76 (LiA: WTF??? A deadline? Surely you jest...they waited and waited and waited...we got mail from them. This can't really be true. This has to be a story to excuse the issue!), we ALL said it was "SYM" (yes, money for face). We universally hated it...strangely, we liked the other stuff, even TS coming out then, for a brief period at least, but this album went no where fast w all the die hards I knew at the time.

BD2 is the only defender, thru the yrs; the first one I met, truly.

I will say that we thought the shows were better than the release; not good, not anything like early 74, much less 72, but not terrible.

For me, coming from my expectation of S&R, the whole October run (fall of my senior yr!) was a huge disappointment; fortunately, by spring time, it got better, not w SNACK, but w Bob Fried and then Sept in GGPk.

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Poster: billydlions Date: Jan 4, 2014 1:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

Were you referring to me? Perhaps I misunderstood your post, but I was not defending SYM but the box release. The Tapers Compendium says they "performed some of the best music of their career" which I agree with! I would wager that if we polled everyone 1974 would get the nod over 1973. Not sure about 1974 vs 1972, but I bet it would be close.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 4, 2014 7:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

Yeah, I was talking bout you; ;)

The show sounds more or less the same (it's the sound that bugs us...they might be playing technically "great" but it has no energy and zip...and it sounds hollow).

It's my same old same old; folks like BryanE used to argue that Jerry's playing was getting better and better (eg, conceding that the vocals were declining as I always rag on about), but who cares? Well, BE did, rest his soul, BUT I didn't...

What's w all the discussion of improvement along those lines if the band just doesn't have the overall impact and energy of the late 60s?

Of course, a number of folks have defended these improvements (ie, comparing 77 to 68 and preferring the former due to its technical advances, but I sure don't).

So, nothing new from me--per usual.

The sound on Promised Land from these shows (was there more than one? the one on the album is the one I think of...) just absolutely BLOWS...

Cowbell? REALLY???!!

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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Jan 4, 2014 2:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

I will take ANY show from 72-74 ! But I cold see how, given the higher energy level of 72, how one could have seen them as declining ., especially if you are a young tiger wanting to rock out (at my first show, in late 76, I was really impressed with Around & Around, not the jams ). I like the "average" sort to of 1st set sort of songs, and rockers, more form 72 , but the jams , and set structure from 74, BUT I like 'em all .

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Poster: merryjerry1 Date: Jan 4, 2014 2:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

'72 vs. '74: might go with '74 for better served set one material but as for set 2 it depends on the given show.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Jan 5, 2014 1:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

I can't give '74 the nod over '73, but I wonder if I'm prejudiced by the WOS "sound", which i really can't stand. The vocals sound awful in that compressed, tinny, hissy mic they used and it ruins much of their better performances for me. But even w/out WOS issues, I think '73 had the more precise jazz jams than did '74, and especially the over-indulgent versions of Dark Star and The Other One in '74, I just can't get into vs. '73 (which, to be fair, had a lot of that "extra" space feedback noise crap going on as well. But overall, better stuff, i.e. the Winterland run, or my favorite of the year 6/22/73 in Vancouver.)

In the end, '72 kicks both '73 and '74's collective asses and takes their lunch money while doing so. From Veneta to the fall run of shows like the Spectrum, and of course, Europe...nothing they could do in '73 or '74 to me even approaches the heights they hit in '72.

And then '77 just came, saw, and conquered, but that's a thread for another time.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 5, 2014 6:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

Well said, GC; I thought that it was more or less accepted by most all that 72>73>74...

Of course, I also buy 68>77, but as you say, that's a whole nuther thread...eh?

;)

Not sure at the time what we found fault w in 74, though it wasn't discussed much...just rare comments about what we were missing (for me, it was the old hands saying "yeah, but recall that fall of 73 run at Winterland?" or "Europe 72 tapes!" or what have you...).

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Jan 4, 2014 7:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

I can certainly see how people at the time could see the band being in decline - less energetic, Garcia moves less, Pigpen gets replaced by Donna, the music gets more mellow, etc. Comparing one of the standard "rock" tunes like JBG or Sat Night between '71 and '74, the drop in energy is very evident.
Of course, there were compensating musical gains as well, but those were the kind that might be more appreciated by tape listeners than young showgoers.

Yes, I know it's hard to believe that they waited until '76 to release SYF and then faced a deadline. But it's true.
The way it worked was, their record company was going under, so they made a distribution deal with United Artists, and UA required a new album from the Dead - also, the Dead were going broke because editing the movie was sucking up all their funds (and they weren't playing live), so they badly needed the money from UA. So the situation was, they did nothing with the tapes til spring '76 and then had to get something ready in a couple weeks. They would not have released it if they hadn't needed immediate funds.
Phil, Jerry & Owsley talked extensively about the process after it was released. None of them liked the album; Jerry just shrugged (he was involved with his own separate work on the movie), but Phil was kicking himself for his mistakes.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 4, 2014 7:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

Ha, yeah, I recall all the biz w the various deals, but at the time, they sent us little dead head news tidbits, acting as if they were sweating away on it during the hiatus...I guess you can say the procrastination means you can use the excuse "oh, crap! I screwed up because I only had 2 weeks!" but I say, if it's what you love doing, or even if it's your job, then you've only yourself to blame.

;)

But hey, we were just rabid fans waiting on delivery; the fact was, the delay probably factored in to why we were SO upset!

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Jan 4, 2014 7:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

They still have lots of footage from the run. Lemieux has said they could even do "another two-DVD set of the other outtakes from The Grateful Dead Movie. There is still plenty of material, both live musical performances and backstage and interview footage to include."

He was asked if they have the complete shows on film:
"We did have some material from all 5 nights to select from for the bonus songs, but by no means was the entire run filmed. For instance, on the first night, only 5 or 6 songs were filmed (including the big 32 minute "Playing In The Band" that was included in The Grateful Dead Movie, and which can be heard for the first time in its entirety on the 5 CD soundtrack to the Movie). On the second night, we had a little less than half of the show to choose from, and for bonus material we selected "China Cat Sunflower>I Know You Rider" and the "The Other One>Spanish Jam>Mind Left Body Jam>The Other One." From the middle night, October 18, we had a little more than half, but some of the best material from this night was already in the Movie ("Morning Dew," "Goin' Down The Road Feeling Bad"). However, we have also included the sweet "Sugaree," the excellent "Weather Report Suite" and the "Dark Star" that preceded "Morning Dew." From the 19th we had about half of the show to select from ("Scarlet Begonias" and "Uncle John's Band" made the cut), and from the final night, also about half of the show was filmed. So, as you see, not everything was filmed, but between the Movie and the bonus songs on the DVD, we now have more than 3 hours of music from these shows on pristine quality DVD. Rest assured there is more to come down the road from this run."

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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Jan 3, 2014 10:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

I though Ned Lagin was only on the Seastones segments, and a little of the jams out of them . If his playing was wiped that would be tragic . If so, I wonder if it was technical , his feed being poorly recorded of distorted etc, economic/legal reasons, or ego trips ("he was not a band member") . Not to start conspiracy theories .
I think those full band Seastones are highlights for their short run (just Europe, and these Winterland shows ?) . On "Blues For Allah" they still are "jazzy" . When they return to touring, they are a different band, I still like the music (76 is pet year for me) but they are much more conservative . I wonder if the move away from the more improvisational , was Hart art's return, (the loss of the "turn on a dime" factor), Garcia's drug change , or the Band being creatures of Rock's stylistic changes . By the late 70's the "Fusion" thing was moving to a more commercial direction in Jazz, and fewer bands in Rock, were taking it out . The groups dabbling in Disco in the era and a tighter , less jammy, sound in the early 80's (New Waves etc.), are examples of them being influenced by what was around them . Styles change, and so did the band members, just look and their hair, and clothes !(exception being Jerry !).
But, amusing they figured out how to save money (maybe ditch the Wall of Sound etc.) it would hove been interesting to see where they would have gone without the break .

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Jan 3, 2014 12:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

The recording had a number of technical difficulties, some things didn't get recorded right, and Ned was one of them, at least during the songs. The plan later was for him to re-record his parts for the movie, but Ned quit the band in '75 so they decided to just omit him.
As he tells it in the Gans interview:
"The plan was that I would guest every night... I played mostly through all the second sets every night, and two sets and two encores on the last night. For some of the Weir tunes and some of the rock & roll tunes, I would split and then come back. Extra equipment was added, so I could hear and be heard continuously and in stereo. A lot of preparation went into the setup, how they positioned me and how they could photograph my hands. Jerry had some scripted ideas and tune sequencing in mind, and some jam sequence goals...
It was so disappointing when it turned out...while some of my tracks were OK, some of my tracks were damaged or had disappeared... It was decided that where necessary I would replace my tracks later...
[After quitting,] I signed a release for the movie, with me removed from the movie as much as possible - because to be in the movie meant I would have to do all these overdubs to fix missing or damaged tracks. It looked like that could be a long time in the future and drag on forever. I felt that if I wasn't going to be involved with the Grateful Dead in performance anymore, then why should I be in the movie?"

The band sure did get more conservative in '76; could be any number of reasons. (Garcia also went in a less jazzy direction in his own sideband.) It's a shame there weren't more shows in '75. Garcia was happy with the more "outer-space" direction he could go in with Lagin in '74-75 (in Dead shows and Ned's "solo" shows), but it turned out to just be a temporary phase.

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Poster: merryjerry1 Date: Jan 3, 2014 12:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

And I've read (sorry no citation) that Billy wanted to go further out into jazz space.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Jan 3, 2014 12:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

Wouldn't be surprised. He missed that freedom in later years. Of course, Mickey was quite happy doing outer-space jams as well, and they could still get into these free improvs in '76; but the band as a whole kind of pulled away from that, and I don't think it was entirely because of the "slower, heavier" two-drummer thing.

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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Jan 3, 2014 12:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The74 'Grateful Dead Movie' sound track , and the shows .

Wow, how sad . A quick look at the AUDs here on IA show one for the 16th, &18th . I have them but honestly don't remember hearing him, but he would be buried in the overall sound . So what we mostly have is truthfully , incomplete .
I suppose we are lucky to have what we do have . Thanks .
I should say the slightly echoey sound, makes it nice, to listen to on my old disc-man, Nice spacey walks !